In the standard questionnaire that prospective jurors are given, they are asked if they or members of their immediate family have been victims of a crime, or if they work in law enforcement. Now that felons will be part of the jury pool, they will undoubtedly also ask if they have been convicted of a crime themselves.
In my experience, judges will themselves excuse jurors who have family in law enforcement (parent, spouse, sibling), which means the lawyers don't have to bother using a challenge on it. I would expect the same will happen with many/most criminal convictions, especially when they are related to the crime that is alleged.
And even when they are unrelated, I expect the prosecutor would dig in and ask questions like "have your feelings about respect for the law changed since you were convicted of embezzlement?" — even if it's an assault trial. These questions will be uncomfortable for the potential jurors, who may feel like they're being humiliated and put on trial all over again. I would not want to be a felon being questioned for jury selection by a prosecutor.
note: my experience is in San Mateo county jury selection as a private citizen. I am also a former lawyer, and almost all of my lawyer friends have never made it past jury selection. I served once, only because I emphasized that I practiced tax law, which is very different from criminal law.
The woman being questioned for jury duty was asked about being a victim of crime. She said, "I've been a bank teller for over 20 years. I've been robbed at gunpoint three times, and every time it was a black man. Black men are always guilty".
I was shocked she would say such a thing, but even more shocked to see her back the next day. She wasn't dismissed.
After I served on a jury, I had to admit that, whatever its faults, there is some value to occasionally explaining the law to random citizens and asking them to apply it in a given case. It should put a limit on how weird or explicitly unfair the law can be. To be honest, it’s not much of a limit. Several words already have a different legal meaning than their everyday meaning (e.g., in copyright law, “to copy” includes activities that don’t end with an identical copy of the protected work). But there is some limit.
The defense isn't allowed to tell jurors about jury nullification and there's an effort to keep out any potential jurors who are aware of it. In general there seems to be a big effort to not have jurors think to much on their own. Once during selection I mentioned how unreliable eye witness testimony can be (they were trying to weed out anyone who had problems with convicting based solely on eye witness testimony), and the prosecutor asked me "What if the judge told you to give eye witness testimony the same weight as physical evidence?"
I often see people worry that if we didn't have trial by jury a lot more innocent people would get convicted. Yet if you look at a country like Germany, it doesn't have trial by jury and it has ~1/9 the incarceration rate as the USA.
The conviction rate is what you're looking for, and consulting Table 5 and Table 6 of this document:
We see that Germany has a higher conviction rate than the US.
What we'd really like to see is the rate of false conviction, but this is difficult to determine, for obvious reasons.
I think it's very telling that the first time, the prosecutor kept asking if people would apply the law as written, and not how they would prefer it to be written. I didn't think I could answer that question without hearing the details, but she refused to provide them (she never got to me, so I never had to answer). It turned out that an inmate was caught with some drugs inside a prison, and she was charged with possession of the drugs, and possession of drug paraphernalia (the paraphernalia being a plastic bag the drugs had been kept in).
The second time, the judge asked if anybody had served on a jury before, and those who answered "yes" were asked if anything happened during that service that shook their confidence in the system. They were specifically cautioned to not go into details so that the rest of us wouldn't be tainted.
Both of those experiences feel like huge red flags for the system in general. But, again, I have to acknowledge there does seem to be some value in including regular citizens. I'm not sure if that value outweighs the negatives. But, it's an explicitly guaranteed Constitutional right in the US, so without an amendment, it isn't going away.
For the record, in the US, if you'd rather take your chances with just the judge, you can waive your right to a jury. But most people accused of crimes seem to believe the jury is a better bet.
The different systems are completely at odds philosophically and require a completely different attitude, which explains so much - Brexit and the antipathy of many Brits towards the EU, and the EU itself are the current exemplar of this - but pick any of the contested parts of the US constitution (like freedom of speech or right to bear arms) and you can gauge support either way by answering the question "do you understand/prefer common law or civil law?"
If you don't trust the citizenry to make decisions for themselves then paternalistic authoritarianism is your preference, and we all know where that leads.
Germany is the exception. Abolished jury in 1924.
Greece, for instance, has a jury made up of judges. That's not a jury, that's an equivocation!
if you face criminal charges is the US, you can have the verdict decided by the judge if you prefer, but it's usually not a good idea. trial by jury tends to favor the defense more than a bench trial (where the judge decides).
imo trial by jury is probably the best part of the US legal system. the real issue is the imbalance in resources between state prosecutors and public defendants. a poor or overburdened attorney can fail to make use of the many advantages you have as the defendant in a jury trial.
Unfortunately, there are many, many problems with it.
Lay judges don't get to see the court record (or even the written indictment), they stumble into the trial unprepared, and since oftentimes the oral proceedings are referring to things in the record, they can easily be overwhelmed and confused.
Additionally, court secrecy is absolute, and they must not tell anyone how they voted or why, so the professional judge can always sabotage an acquittal by introducing an error in the written judgment, which is written without the lay judges, and the lay judges never even see the written judgment.
As a lay judge you walk into the court building in the morning of those days you've been appointed for. You meet the professional judges, and they give you a short rundown of the day planned. Then you start the trials.
Until then you never even knew that Mr Miller was going to be tried for arson or that Mrs Johnson was going to be tried for shop-lifting.
If you walked into the judges office and asked the secretary (well, officer of records) for the indictment, she would tell you to walk away. She, the defender and the prosecutor have the only copies of the record (and in smaller cases the prosecutor does not even have the whole record, just excerpts he photocopied, because the prosecutor in the court room is not the one who worked the case).
Yes, the idea is to have totally uninfluenced lay judges.
In German it's judges. So a judge tries you and says you're guilty or innocent?
You have to forego your right of trial by Jury in the USA for that to be the case.
The decision of facts (as opposed to legal decisions) is a majority vote of professional and layman judges...
edit: major —> intermediate
The problem is selecting good judges. In Germany this seems to work great, but what I see in recent times in the US terrifies me. Voting for judges leads to populists winning, appointing them leads to very questionable people being appointed for their stance on single issues. Maybe the real problem is that the US is so divided with all sides trying to score points against the other side (whether that's Democrats vs Republicans, Feminists vs everyone else, Black vs White, Pro-Life vs Pro-Choice etc). Everything else just follows from that.
Sure they can, one nutjob juror cannot convict.
I've also been seated on juries where some of my fellow jurors were quite obviously biased against the defendant, and this really hurt their credibility with me. I wasn't the only one either, other jurors challenged some of the statements they made and it was clear to me that they also picked up on the bias and rejected it.
My first time on a jury a pleasant looking retired white man said he wanted to be foreman, for a trial of a Hispanic youth, and the guy started with "well he's obviously guilty right?" and he was serious. This was met with total outrage from several others on the jury and the foreman sat there meekly for the rest of the deliberations. The rest of us carefully reviewed the evidence and the defendant absolutely received a fair trial.
Combine this with the concept of jury nullification (something law enforcement DESPISES) and there are lots of situations where it would make sense for a juror to refuse to align with the rest of the jury.
That's not been my experience, and I've sat through the process in San Francisco 3-4 times so far.
note: my experience is in San Mateo county jury selection as a private citizen. I am also a former lawyer, and almost all of my lawyer friends have never made it past jury selection. I served once, only because I emphasized that I practiced tax law, which is very different from criminal law.
Yep, voir dire is designed to weed out anyone with knowledge of the legal system or knowledge relevant to the case at hand. Then those people are expected to make decisions based on legal standards they've no familiarity with.
It's the best system in the world.
You're not though. The one trial I was one was a murder case and the two defendants didn't speak a lick of English. All of the Spanish speakers were weeded out because English is the law of the land and you are not allowed your own interpretations. Do you really think that is a jury of their peers? I owned up to speaking a few words of Spanish and vowed to use the official legal translations only, and out of desperation I wasn't excused.
When the police interrogated one of them we weren't allowed to translate the police interpretation both because we weren't official translators and because the policeman's words were not evidence. The official translation didn't match what I think the cop said. I followed the letter of the law. I asked the judge if we could consider the video of the interrogation and the judge answered in the negative. Eventually we convicted a man of second degree murder. The judge even sent out thank you letters. It's definitely up there as one of the most revolting things I've done with my life.
That ought to be enough.
It's not. Even if you ignore the baked in corruption it's an awful system designed by people enamored with a bullshit concept of legal precision.
There are plenty of things that could be done to improve it, but aren't. So here we are. Allowing felons to sit on a jury probably makes someone feel good but does little, if anything, to address the problems with our legal system.
Updated the comment for clarification.
Custody credits. For crimes committed after October 2011, defendants who do not misbehave while in jail will receive 1 day of "conduct credits" for every 1 days of actual jail time served. Felons will similarly receive 1 day of conduct credit for every day of actual time served in prison while on good behavior. However, felons convicted of a violent crime only receive 15% conduct credit for time served (so 1 day of "conduct credit" for every 15 days of jail time served) and 0% credit if convicted of murder.
The only crimes you can (or could) receive 30+ year sentences for in CA are violent crimes (like rape, armed robbery, or murder) or 3-strikes sentences, and such sentencing is no longer possible for a 3rd strike unless the 3rd strike is a violent crime.
So lawyers game this so that the felons stay in these prisons/jails longer than other prisons and come out faster.
The police officer is lying. Credits are based on statutory formulas and no facility provides any more custody credits than any other, because the facility doesn't determine how many credits you get.
Your relaying of the podcast, while a little simplified, is not the problem - there aren't "key elements" missing. The problem is that the information on the podcast is blatantly wrong.
It's called parole, sometimes released on licence. First you have to get past the parole board who will assess your suitability for release. The theory is to grant you supervised access back to society to regain your place in society. While on parole there's all sorts of reason you can find yourself back inside. Half or two thirds of sentence is pretty common too.
What America does different is not having post sentence - that's post release and parole - rehabilitation, you are always an ex-felon, even after 50 years law abiding. Other nations find offenders can often reform and regain a place in society, particularly if given a fair chance...
Updated my original comment for clarity.
The 2x time served is a good conduct credit equal to one day of conduct credit for every day served on good behavior. If you misbehave or commit further crimes in jail or prison, you don't get the credit.
Violent felons get significantly less credit for good behavior (15%) and murderers aren't even eligible.
Updated my original comment for clarity
Seriously, so much this. The thing should be stateless. You made a mistake, there were consequences - but once that's over, you ought to be good as new.
Eternal punishment only ought to have a place in dumb mythology.
I can imagine many cases where I'd be comfortable with someone being out of prison but not with owning a gun after let's say N years for an armed robbery conviction. In fact, I might not be comfortable with them legally owning a gun ever again. If we demand that the system be totally stateless and that we not release a prisoner until we're comfortable giving them all the possible rights, it seems sensible to argue the penalty for armed robbery should be life (which is, of course, ridiculous).
If you have any kind of likely violent history or mental illness, you shouldn't get a gun period, regardless of whether you were arrested and convicted or not. If you can't pass a commercial driving test or ever showed up drunk to the job, you shouldn't get a license. You can't vote until you're 18. And so on.
So I think the right way to frame this isn't "felons won't get back X rights" but rather "nobody gets X right who has relevant evidence they can't handle it responsibly".
Except for voting, which is such a fundamental right it arguably shouldn't be denied to anyone unless they're below a certain age or mentally incompetent.
The consequences for being found guilty of a crime are more nuanced than this suggests, although not so much in the US which is very focused on vengeance.
Let's take an example a sentencing example I sat in on:
The man had forged paperwork purportedly showing he'd paid a bunch of money for supplies, because he had already written a fraudulent claim for a large tax refund for his business, and the tax office wrote back asking for evidence of this expenditure. That was his last chance to say "Oops, that was er... a mistake" and maybe get a fine, once he decided "I'll just forge the paperwork" he was doomed to go to prison.
Item 1 on the court's agenda was to tell Companies House that the guilty man must not direct any companies. Never (unless a successful application is made to reverse this, which is unlikely) can this man serve as director or secretary of any type of company again. In his family business this means a son will now run the company - why? Because the freedom to direct a company is not essential and we evidently can't trust this guy to do so because he purposefully lied to the tax authorities. He doesn't need to "earn" that back, let somebody trustworthy do it instead.
The guy also got some months of prison time, after the court had reassured itself that this would not leave any dependants destitute -- no point sending one guy to prison only to have his kids turn to crime to get food right? But the fervent hope of the court is that this results in him being _reformed_ and no longer breaking the law.
We can also disqualify people who commit electoral fraud from participating in elections. Oh two government employees conspired to stuff a ballot for a $500 pay off? They're not just going to prison for a little while, they will also have a lifetime ban on standing as candidate in any election and from participating in any way, including as an ordinary voter. No more democracy for you motherfucker.
As to "eternal" punishment, in countries that don't have the Death Penalty (all of Europe for example) what else should we do with unrepentant murderers? Anders Breivik for example still expresses the belief that murdering a bunch of young volunteers was the right thing to do. We obviously can't be like "OK Anders, you've served your time, don't kill anybody else" because that's exactly what he'll do. So he will most likely spend the rest of his life in a cell - periodically psychologists will assess him, say nope he's still dangerous, and he'll stay behind bars.
This I can't agree with.
Punishment can be a deterrent and preventative and also retributive, but there's no reason it needs to be "eye for an eye" retributive. A prison term and fine is enough.
In my eyes, voting remains a fundamental right no matter what you've done, the very basis of our entire system. After all, the state can abuse its prisoners (denying medical care is a common one, but the list goes on) and they can have legitimate needs which require representation. There is no reason they should be denied a political voice as long as they are still citizens, no matter what they've done. To claim otherwise is to deny their fundamental humanity.
And convicting political opponents falsely or under slim evidence so they can't stand for office is a tried and true technique for silencing opposition in many countries. (See Lula in Brazil most recently.) If someone has committed a crime, you shouldn't make it illegal for them to run. Let voters make the determination.
Of course in some circumstances, maybe paedophilia, the candidate may not be able to change the desire to commit further crimes.
If the consequences are too great, it makes people not want to make mistakes, therefore getting stuck.
If consequences are too small, people do not learn to think about "what could go wrong", and do stupid things over and over again.
In this day and age where everything gets recorded and shared, I tend to be more cautious.
However the smaller amount of mistakes gets shared to more people to learn from, therefore maybe we are learning faster this way?
This appears as a perfect false equivalence imo. Would you also let someone who was convicted of poisoning people serve you fast food?
Here's some  stats about repeat offeders
However; a robber can serve as a jurist? I don't understand your logic; if it was you who were on trial, wouldn't you hope that the jury of your peers had a higher degree of ethics than a gal who robbed a bank? I know I would.
It's a false equivalence, because they're not suitable for the role in the first place.
A better question is, would I let a pedophile who served their time work at McDonald's? And the answer is, of course. They need a job just like everyone else.
Last I went there, it was filled with teenagers, typical middle school and high school from the area. Further away from the city center, the bigger macdonalds have playing area and attractions for children, to cater to young families with kids.
This is a complete strawman, the argument is that legal rights of this person is fully restored in the eye of the government, potential employers can always turn people down for almost any reason.
Is USA so full of paedophiles that all felons are paedophiles? Or why are you trying to establish this equivalence?
The Magna Carta, which secured the right to a jury trial, only concerned the rights of the landed gentry. The jury trial was about the landed class having the right to deliberate on the disputes of its own members. It was copied from the system used for matters pertaining to Church lands and clerical crimes; matters that were required to be settled by other clergy through a parallel court system administered by the Church, whose rights and powers were derived from papal authority.
This notion isn't entirely antiquated today. Some scholars argue that one of the reasons the American criminal justice system has become so harsh on minorities is because juries are usually composed of members who live in separate communities from the accused. Their interests are in tamping down on crime, with little incentive to consider the disruption caused by wrenching away men and women from the labor pool and their families. According to this perspective, we should maybe return to a system where jury pools are called from much smaller geographical districts--literally the neighborhood where the crime occurred.
When share cropping was still a thing in the South, before penal labor became a state enterprise, and even during slavery, juries were often quite lenient toward the working class, including blacks. (Conviction rates were much closer to parity between white and black defendants!) Jury members knew that the accused likely worked for someone else in the community, and owed debts to others; unnecessary punishment of the accused indirectly punished jury members' friends and families. Things worked similarly at the turn of the 19th century in major cities, when ethnic communities were compact and courts weren't centralized downtown. Jail time meant leaving a wife and kids without needed income, creating an immediate burden on the community (e.g. more expenditures from the neighborhood church's coffers).
If juries were again composed of members from the community directly impacted by a crime, then it might still make sense to penalize felons from serving. Juries would once again be more about the community policing itself, as opposed to today where we principally conceive of juries as impartial and fair (in the roulette sense) adjudicators of guilt and gatekeepers of retributive justice. Fortunately, most crime is still local. "Black-on-black" is a catchphrase today, but crime is generally neighbor-on-neighbor everywhere.
 Of course, if you were black then "unnecessary" would need to take into account the need to sow fear in the black community. But so long as slavery and share cropping kept blacks tied to the plantations and farms, that was far less common than in later years when they became more mobile.
For this, I’m totally 100% behind the decision. A jury of our peers is as good as it gets, folks. Even with the drawbacks it will never get better. We need to protect it and honor it, and that includes letting those who have felt the strong arm of the law decide whether the law itself is applied fairly to other people.
A hypothetical issue with the concept of "a jury of our peers" could be defining "peers".
Are there situations where the issue being litigated is sufficiently specialized that the average person would not constitute a peer? For example, determining whether an engineer followed proper practices.
At least in America, is so little shared world view between different segments of society (Democrat and Republican, rural and urban, upper class and working poor, west coast and deep south, etc.) that a given pair of citizens might effectively not be peers?
These concerns could be especially important since the law often depends on determining what a "reasonable person" would do in a situation which might vary depending on the "reasonable person's" background.
Is it? How about professional jurors. Would that be an improvement? Or a mix of the two; some peers, some professionals. Or what about short-engagement professional jurors - selected from the citizenry at large, but then given some proper training and acting as jurors for a year. Or perhaps a cadre of professionally trained jurors who take a few months to become trained, and then simply do jury duty alongside their untrained colleagues. Is a simple jury of peers really the best we can do?
Why not limit witness testimony to professionals too?
Because we don't have a time machine to place professional witnesses where they need to be in order to witness things to testify about.
Just a thought exercise.
Having been on the inside of juries now, it restores some faith in some aspects, but you also realise far clearer where potential problems and limits are.
If instructions are vague or confusing, they want the jury to decide what the instructions mean, not the lawyers or judge.
I'm never understood such blind chauvinism, particularly here in light of all that's been said in this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21710564
And then the city banned plastic bags...
* Paper can't adequately and sanitarily hold poop
* It's flimsy, recycled paper which is even worse
* They cost $0.05 a bag, which is pretty steep for a population many of whom have literally no money
Go to a dog park and see what people pick up their dogs' poop with -- paper or plastic?
Sorry for diversion of a subject, can't resist.
My other favourite “environmentally friendly” thirst quencher when I can’t get bottled water? Coconut water, imported from god-knows-where.
People who've been to prison are much more likely to be grounded in visceral reality and weigh things properly compared to much of our increasingly sheltered society, especially along the coasts.
But I would guess that few felons will make it onto juries, and the ones that do will endure embarrassing questions during jury selections, in front of a room full of their peers, about their past crimes and whether or not they are now sufficiently honest citizens.
Criminal trials where felons would generally not be permitted to serve on juries for the same reason that police officers aren't, and civil trials, which conviction status doesn't matter.
Felons made poor decisions in the past. The opportunity for problematic behavior is present-- the poor decision making had better be confined to the past and not the present.
Proceed with caution.
I mean I know our justice system is busted and you'd have to be insane to say it actually reformed people instead of just locking them away because we don't give a shit about doing anything else, but either way...
Certain things are not a right to have, e.g. driving license or be working in a specific profession. Firearms in the US is special but the use of firearm in the US is a topic for itself.
'what about the children?'
it's a tired argument that always has the same answer : some people would care, some wouldn't care, but the phrasing of your prompt provides a moral imperative to agree, no matter the question.
you'll never get honesty that way, you'll only hear what you phrase the question to hear : in this case no one is going to dare say "Let's have the child abusers in school.".
Would I risk a hiring a shoplifter in my store? Yes. Would I let a person who commited fraud to work with money ? Yes. What they do isn't something that could not be "repaired".
Buy you raise very valid views, thanks for that
The truth is that it's a punitive system, rather than trying to do anything productive about it.
Why society locks people away is not just about trying to change them (that's a case by case assessment whether it can be done or not) but to simply protect normal citizens from them - and in most cases "aging someone in prison" is good enough to make them less of a criminal (at least for violent crimes).
In general, rights should be restored, yes. There should only be exceptions if there is reason, which the judge judges. The judge may rule that an attempted suicide bomber doesn't get to work with bombs in mining operations, or someone who repeatedly caused fatal accidents not get a new driver's license (though I guess that might be an issue in the USA, I hear it's necessary for normal life there, but it's about the example), or someone who committed voting fraud doesn't get to run a place where people vote during elections, etc., but otherwise I don't see how it shouldn't be equal for everyone.
Juries create labelled data -- defendants are found guilty or not guilty -- but how do we know what characteristics of juries are likely to result in the most accurate verdicts, since we don't have a measure of whether defendants are truly guilty or innocent? Has anyone looked at what jury characteristics predict overturning of verdicts on appeal?
Perhaps it's time for the US to follow the lead of most of its common law brethren in the Commonwealth and get rid of the terms "misdemeanour" and "felony".
Other common law jurisdictions get by just fine by categorising small crimes as "summary" and larger ones as "indictable" for the purposes of criminal procedure (not that this categorisation maps all that well in the US where the right to jury trials is more entrenched). There isn't a comparable term to "felon", which is fine, because it's much better to talk about a "convicted murderer" or "convicted drug trafficker" or "convicted drink driver". And laws imposing restrictions on ex-prisoners generally apply to specific crimes, or to crimes carrying particular sentences with the threshold varying depending on the type of restriction.
At that point, there just isn't much need for the word "felony".
In our existing system, both sides get to rule out a set number of jurors for whatever reason they want (unless can be shown that the lawyers intended to discriminate on a few set characteristics), and then an unlimited amount of jurors if they can show the jurors might have any kind of bias, through a process called jury selection or voir dire. This is a giant industry, encompassing everything from body language experts to data analysis. For example, here's what TransUnion had to say about their new big data product:
> With little time to research potential jurors using manual methods, attorneys and consultants traditionally pick juries based on what they can observe — age, gender, answers to background questions during voir dire and body language — leading to jury pools selected at least partially based on stereotypes and hunches.
> Cutting-edge research tools like TLOxp® by TransUnion make it easy and affordable to quickly find more accurate, actionable information on potential jurors. TLOxp uses proprietary linking algorithms to scour 125 billion records on an estimated 95% of the U.S. population within seconds, uncovering insightful information and establishing patterns and relationships.
In other words, you aren't the first person to consider that people on juries might be biased, and in fact in my opinion we go far too far in the other direction.
Furthermore, juries don't (generally) just get to decide whatever they want, they are instructed in what factors they are allowed to evaluate, and what tests they must use, by the judge. An appeal can (generally) only challenge the process, not the decision by the jurors.
Here's what the article had to say about this:
> The new law won’t interfere with this process. The attorneys or judge retain authority to dismiss a potential juror with a felony conviction from a particular case, for cause — but a felony conviction does not, in and of itself, constitute cause.
In other words, either side could come up with a vague reason they didn't like a former felon and get them off the jury even if they had already used up their free strikes.